Defying the Odds - Chapter Three

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Defying the Odds - Chapter Three

Postby Thietje on Sun Jul 24, 2011 9:24 pm

Wow, I thought the situation for Daniel was bad when his wife was killed in the series, but this is even worse for him because he killed her himself. I hope Daniel can make it through this with his sanity intact.
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Re: Defying the Odds - Chapter Three

Postby MaureenT on Sun Jul 24, 2011 9:37 pm

Thietje wrote:Wow, I thought the situation for Daniel was bad when his wife was killed in the series, but this is even worse for him because he killed her himself. I hope Daniel can make it through this with his sanity intact.

The fact that Daniel was the one who killed her does make the situation many times worse. The grief is bad enough, but it's the guilt that's really doing a number on Daniel.
Dr. Markov: If you're implying that everything Russian-made is poor quality, actually the sub is Swiss.
Daniel: So they occasionally catch fire, but they keep perfect time? Sorry. I think I've been hanging around Jack O'Neill too much.

-- From the Stargate SG-1 episode "Watergate."
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Re: Defying the Odds - Chapter Three

Postby DizzyDrea on Sun Jul 24, 2011 9:55 pm

Wow...just, wow.

I love how each one of the people he cares about weigh in with their own experiences and heartfelt words. It made me cry a little, especially with Sam because I'd actually forgotten that the whole Jolinar episode happened before this. She'd know what it was like for Sha're. And Jack understands because of Charlie. It's more than a little sad that his closest friends know how to comfort him because they've each suffered through some pretty unimaginable things. I guess we all go through this crap for a reason, and this is theirs.

So, he contemplates suicide, but becomes fumble fingers before he can get there and settles for dreamless sleep instead? Again, wow, although I can't say I blame him. Oblivion would have to be better than the pain he was in, but I still maintain that it's the coward's way out, and Daniel is anything but a coward.

I notice that Teal'c has been strangely silent this whole time. When's the big man gonna weigh in? And when is Daniel going to come to his senses about the program? He told Sam he couldn't resist the lure of the unknown, and now he's just walking away. Maybe he thinks he needs to punish himself, and maybe finding Sha're was his stated mission, but it leaves me wondering what could pull him back in if it isn't looking for Shifu. His teammates aren't gonna be happy, that's for sure. Might even be a little mad at him for just bailing on them, although I guess no one's gonna say they can't understand his reasons.
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Re: Defying the Odds - Chapter Three

Postby MaureenT on Mon Jul 25, 2011 6:49 am

I don't have time this morning to reply to the whole comment, but I felt the need to respond to the part below right away.

DizzyDrea wrote:So, he contemplates suicide, but becomes fumble fingers before he can get there and settles for dreamless sleep instead? Again, wow, although I can't say I blame him. Oblivion would have to be better than the pain he was in, but I still maintain that it's the coward's way out, and Daniel is anything but a coward.

No, you got it totally wrong. Daniel did not contemplate suicide. He really did intend to take just two pills. He just accidentally knocked the bottle into the sink. My earlier refusal to discuss whether or not Daniel would kill himself was because I didn't want to spoil the suspense of those moments when you don't know if he did take the whole bottle.

I'll reply to the rest of the comment this afternoon.
Dr. Markov: If you're implying that everything Russian-made is poor quality, actually the sub is Swiss.
Daniel: So they occasionally catch fire, but they keep perfect time? Sorry. I think I've been hanging around Jack O'Neill too much.

-- From the Stargate SG-1 episode "Watergate."
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Re: Defying the Odds - Chapter Three

Postby MaureenT on Mon Jul 25, 2011 4:45 pm

Okay, now for the reply on the rest of your comments.

DizzyDrea wrote:I love how each one of the people he cares about weigh in with their own experiences and heartfelt words. It made me cry a little, especially with Sam because I'd actually forgotten that the whole Jolinar episode happened before this. She'd know what it was like for Sha're. And Jack understands because of Charlie. It's more than a little sad that his closest friends know how to comfort him because they've each suffered through some pretty unimaginable things. I guess we all go through this crap for a reason, and this is theirs.

Yes, Sam would understand what Sha're was feeling since, in the beginning, she would have had no clue that the symbiote that took possession of her was not like the Goa'uld, especially since Jolinar took complete control and did not let Sam emerge except for that one moment in the brig. I always thought that Jolinar made a mistake in doing that, that she would have gained more trust if she had talked to Sam, explained who and what she was, then let Sam have control. But I guess she didn't know if she could trust us.

Jack knows exactly what Daniel is going through, although there is one important difference. Jack always knew that Charlie's death was an accident. At this point, because Daniel's missing most of the memory, he doesn't know for certain if he shot Sha're accidentally or if it was a conscious choice. That makes the guilt even worse.

DizzyDrea wrote:So, he contemplates suicide, but becomes fumble fingers before he can get there and settles for dreamless sleep instead? Again, wow, although I can't say I blame him. Oblivion would have to be better than the pain he was in, but I still maintain that it's the coward's way out, and Daniel is anything but a coward.

Okay, now that it will no longer be a spoiler, I can reply to your earlier comment about believing that Daniel would not deliberately take his own life. I tend to agree. If things were bad enough, he might consider it for a moment, but he'd never follow through on the thought. As I said in my earlier post on this comment, Daniel didn't even consider it this time. He had no intention at all of taking more than two pills, which still wasn't very wise to do.

DizzyDrea wrote:I notice that Teal'c has been strangely silent this whole time. When's the big man gonna weigh in? And when is Daniel going to come to his senses about the program? He told Sam he couldn't resist the lure of the unknown, and now he's just walking away. Maybe he thinks he needs to punish himself, and maybe finding Sha're was his stated mission, but it leaves me wondering what could pull him back in if it isn't looking for Shifu. His teammates aren't gonna be happy, that's for sure. Might even be a little mad at him for just bailing on them, although I guess no one's gonna say they can't understand his reasons.

Teal'c will be making his thoughts known in the next chapter. As for Daniel coming to his senses about the program, you'll have to wait a while longer for that. Leaving the program isn't a form of self-punishment. The next chapter will delve more deeply into his reasons, but if you remember what he told Jack in the vision in Forever and a Day, you already know the reason. So, what will get him to come back? Let's just say that it's a very different reason than in the episode. >;-D
Dr. Markov: If you're implying that everything Russian-made is poor quality, actually the sub is Swiss.
Daniel: So they occasionally catch fire, but they keep perfect time? Sorry. I think I've been hanging around Jack O'Neill too much.

-- From the Stargate SG-1 episode "Watergate."
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Re: Defying the Odds - Chapter Three

Postby DizzyDrea on Mon Jul 25, 2011 4:47 pm

MaureenT wrote:No, you got it totally wrong. Daniel did not contemplate suicide. He really did intend to take just two pills. He just accidentally knocked the bottle into the sink. My earlier refusal to discuss whether or not Daniel would kill himself was because I didn't want to spoil the suspense of those moments when you don't know if he did take the whole bottle.


I sorta debated about posting that comment, because I waffled back and forth about what you'd intended that passage to say. In the end, I posted it just to get clarification from you, which you've provided. Thank you!

My understanding of Daniel's core character has always been that suicide wasn't in his nature, despite his experience with Oma. So, it seemed a little off that you might be implying (or saying outright) that he'd tried and failed. Glad to know my instinct was right on. Still, the scene was powerful because it left me wondering if he'd tried or not. And because Jack wasn't really sure he hadn't tried only added to the impact.
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Re: Defying the Odds - Chapter Three

Postby Stormwing on Mon Jul 25, 2011 4:55 pm

I knew from previous posts on the other chapters that you did not believe Daniel to have suicidal inclinations, however you played the words and suspense just right and left behind a little bit of doubt, that you had changed your mind just to tease us again. *tips hat to you* well played madame.
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Re: Defying the Odds - Chapter Three

Postby MaureenT on Mon Jul 25, 2011 7:16 pm

Stormwing wrote:I knew from previous posts on the other chapters that you did not believe Daniel to have suicidal inclinations, however you played the words and suspense just right and left behind a little bit of doubt, that you had changed your mind just to tease us again. *tips hat to you* well played madame.

I'm a little confused. I didn't say anything in any of the posts on the previous chapters about not believing that Daniel had suicidal inclinations. It was DizzyDrea who said that. I deliberately avoiding saying whether I agreed or disagreed because I didn't want to spoil the suspense for the scene in this chapter. Did you get my comments and DizzyDrea's mixed up?

When I wrote that scene, I definitely wanted everyone to worry that Daniel might have taken the whole bottle -- and be right there with Jack when he was panicking and just about coming unglued. >;-D
Dr. Markov: If you're implying that everything Russian-made is poor quality, actually the sub is Swiss.
Daniel: So they occasionally catch fire, but they keep perfect time? Sorry. I think I've been hanging around Jack O'Neill too much.

-- From the Stargate SG-1 episode "Watergate."
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Re: Defying the Odds - Chapter Three

Postby MaureenT on Mon Jul 25, 2011 7:42 pm

DizzyDrea wrote:I sorta debated about posting that comment, because I waffled back and forth about what you'd intended that passage to say. In the end, I posted it just to get clarification from you, which you've provided. Thank you!

My understanding of Daniel's core character has always been that suicide wasn't in his nature, despite his experience with Oma. So, it seemed a little off that you might be implying (or saying outright) that he'd tried and failed. Glad to know my instinct was right on. Still, the scene was powerful because it left me wondering if he'd tried or not. And because Jack wasn't really sure he hadn't tried only added to the impact.

To be completely honest, I'm surprised that you believed it might have been an attempted suicide. I thought that I had made it clear that it wasn't by the things Daniel said to Jack, especially the apology for unintentionally scaring Jack, which he wouldn't have done if he really had intended to take all the pills.

I'm hoping that the earlier discussion about Daniel and suicide and my teases about it affected the way you read the scene so that you saw something there that wasn't intended to be there. Otherwise, I may have to go back and revise the scene since I wouldn't want anyone else to make the same mistake. Either that or put something in the story later on to make it crystal clear that it was not an attempt at or contemplation of suicide.
Dr. Markov: If you're implying that everything Russian-made is poor quality, actually the sub is Swiss.
Daniel: So they occasionally catch fire, but they keep perfect time? Sorry. I think I've been hanging around Jack O'Neill too much.

-- From the Stargate SG-1 episode "Watergate."
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Re: Defying the Odds - Chapter Three

Postby DizzyDrea on Mon Jul 25, 2011 9:36 pm

MaureenT wrote:I'm hoping that the earlier discussion about Daniel and suicide and my teases about it affected the way you read the scene so that you saw something there that wasn't intended to be there. Otherwise, I may have to go back and revise the scene since I wouldn't want anyone else to make the same mistake. Either that or put something in the story later on to make it crystal clear that it was not an attempt at or contemplation of suicide.


I don't think it was a failure on your part. I think it's more a function of the fact that I wouldn't have taken Daniel's words at face value because people who are contemplating suicide are rarely completely honest. They'll tell you what you want to hear, but when they're all alone, they may still try to end their life because the grief and despair is overwhelming and they're still convinced it's the only way out. I still believe it's not in Daniel's nature, but since you're writing this and not me, you can write it how it best serves your story and your view of who he is. I should have known better than to believe you'd write him so out of character (the character you've always portrayed him to be). Mea culpa on that one.
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